Well you're right, Russia (especially under Putin) has spent a long time presenting itself as the bogeyman of Europe with rampant international threats and assassinations, and now you're surprised people are afraid? That was the whole intention and well congrats, it worked. You don't get to have it both ways so kindly piss off.
It seems you are saying 'it's your own fault, we're not responsible, go away' to me.
I kindly remind you that the comment I was replied to is saying:
'In Russia, the default mode of answering any complaint is "it's your own fault, we're not responsible, go away"'.
The irony is that by not being able to take the exact same thing you're dishing out and defending, you're confirming the exact same stereotypes you doth protest too much about, methinks.
Are you as hateful and violent against gays as your government is?
Misrepresenting - sure. Accurately representing - well, I guess it still can be propaganda, but propagating the truth bears no shame.
It is interesting though how the defender of Russian culture chooses to wield a Western weapon of "hate speech" accusation. In Russia, "hate speech" would be something that the government does not approve of. Including telling the literal truth - such as calling the war the war - or even saying that patriotism is not kissing the ass of the President (a person got arrested for that, though I don't think they decided to prosecute - that'd be interesting to see them attempt to prove that patriotism actually is just that!)
What exactly is interesting? Hate speech is bad, unless it is directed at Russians and then it is not hate speech but 'accurate representation'?
'In Russia, "hate speech" would be something that the government does not approve of'
Not really. 'The motive of political hatred' can be added to the case as an aggravating circumstance, but the charge itself is 'discreditation of Russian army' or 'spreading misinformation'. Not that it makes much difference, since the war began life's got scary in Russia in this respect.
'even saying that patriotism is not kissing the ass of the President'
'a person got arrested for that'
Is this what you call 'propagating the truth'?
Yuriy Shevchuk said a lot of things during his concert but he was never arrested and the court dismissed charges of administrative misconduct for the lack of substance. The prosecutor is going to try again though, but I hope for a good ending -- Shevchuk has a lot of respect in Russian society.
The interesting part is a cynical attempt to use a Western culture war weapon in order to promote Russia, which rejects Western values and hates and wants to destroy both sides.
You are quite mistaken. The notion of hate speech is not unique for Western culture.
Article 282 in Russian Criminal Codex exists since Eltsin time (1996) and addresses incitement of hatred on racial, religious and ethnic grounds. It itself is based on similar article from Soviet times (1960).
In 2003 it was extended by Putin in include hate speech based on gender, language, origin and social stratum.
> The notion of hate speech is not unique for Western culture.
Of course not. But you are using it as a weapon agains Western culture, trying to trigger it into self-harm. Not because you care about Western values and not promoting hate, but because you see a vulnerability that you could exploit - tell somebody "it's hate speech" and they'd run in panic. Except the trick is now obvious, so it won't work.
> Article 282 in Russian Criminal Codex
Oh the lovely 282, how we all adore it. Of course totalitarian dictatorship that rules Russia now will suppress speech, and 282 is where it started (now there are more, of course, it never stops). Only then it was "extremist" speech. I don't need to read TASS (blergh! these guys actually kept SS in their name - all you need to know about them, really) to know about 282, thank you very much. But nobody here cares about 282. You can not deploy 282 here to suppress speech you don't like. So you call it "hate speech" instead, hoping to solicit culture war reaction that you know exists in the West and thus avoid discussing the real issues.
>But you are using it as a weapon agains Western culture, trying to trigger it into self-harm.
That's funny, so now calling out double standards is 'trying to trigger Western culture into self-harm'. Because noticing your own hypocrisy hurts so much, poor you.
Nobody should be violently persecuted unless they have violently hurt other people first and our government quite often disregards human rights.
As for gays, our government haven't intervened (at least publicly) when gays reportedly got violently persecuted in Chechnya. Also our government often doesn't notice hate speech towards gays (hello, Milonov) or punishes rather mildly when it does notice.
Still, I don't think our government thinks that gays should be violently persecuted, it currently only opposes people going to children and saying that homosexuality is normal.
There is a couple of draft laws basically striking out 'children' in the previous sentence, we shall see how things will develop.
Do I? Please quote the wikipedia article you linked to.
"You also dodged all the other questions about what YOU believe, again. Why are you so coy and shy about that? Do you have something to hide?"
I don't feel like answering them.
"Do you prefer that gay Russian children commit suicide"
Quoting from your own link: "Because reliable data does not exist, we do not know whether LGBT youth die by suicide more frequently than their straight peers".
I don't want any "children commit suicide and be beaten and murdered". Or adults.
You see the root of the problem in homosexuality not considered normal, I see the root of the problem in shitty people who bully and attack ones who are not considered normal. Gay, fat, short, disabled, ugly, weak, stupid, weird, nerdy, anything else -- none of them deserve to be harassed.
I’m curious: You don’t think that being continuously exposed to government propaganda and threatened with jail/fines for dissenting opinions will increase the frequency of “shitty people”?
I don't see how the number of people 'denying responsibility and lying' depends on the exposure to government propaganda saying that Russia is doing good and justified thing right now.
If you believe you are right and what is contrary to this belief is only a fake, you don't need to lie and there is no responsibility for something you didn't do.
Then we fundamentally disagree in how human psychology works: I believe that if authorities (be they government officials, parents or others) habitually lie and cheat, then that behavior becomes socially sanctioned as a way to get ahead. Thus you end up with more “shitty people” (and a worse society)
And by the way, when you hear Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen say 'The United States will impose harsh consequences on countries that break the international economic order' and then ironically blaming Russia instead of her own country [0], do you feel how society becomes a little bit worse?
Hmm, I fail to see how this is even remotely comparable to Russian propaganda/related to the topic at hand, but I’ll give you that the “West” has also behaved atrociously in the past. Though please be aware, that arguments like the one you are trying to make, has a distinct feeling of whataboutism.
"I fail to see how this is even remotely comparable to Russian propaganda/related to the topic at hand"
Ehh, perfectly/directly?
I gave you a fine example of "denying responsibility and lying" which should have corrupting influence on the recipients. I wonder if you notice this influence.
"whataboutism"
Any mention of this word has a distinct feeling of double standards.
Again, I don’t think we are going to end up agreeing as I believe that a significant portion of the Russian people are aware, that they are being lied to, but are to scared to do anything about this.
Please also note, that I don’t believe this applied to all Russians. The few I’ve interacted with more closely have been nice (the opposite of “shitty”)
"a significant portion of the Russian people are aware, that they are being lied to, but are to scared to do anything about this"
Well, some of them must be trying to rationalize and normalize what's happening to reduce psychological suffering, but calling them bad on these grounds has a distinct feeling of blaming the victim.
